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 The Ancestor thread

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MGLVNA

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PostSubject: The Ancestor thread   Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:40 pm

For discussion of ancestors. A related conversation from irc:

15:27 Lunar MGLVNA, thoughts on the SBoard ancestors influencing the Alternian history as opposed to the canon ancestors?
15:27 Lunar And/or ancestor session?
15:27 Lunar Vaguely alluded to?
15:27 Nicekat I like the idea of there having been no scratch.
15:27 MGLVNA Our ancestors having some part of the revolution sounds cool.
15:28 Lunar Okay
15:28 MGLVNA Now what to do about this color. To bump it up or down?
15:28 Nicekat No, see, what I was sorta getting at was saying that the canon ancestors did not exist in SBOARD's AU.
15:28 MGLVNA Then there was no revolution, unless ours led it.
15:28 Zael It's part AU part canon
15:29 MGLVNA Summoners at least had to happen, as that got the adults off alternia.
15:29 Nicekat ..There's that, yeah.
15:29 Nicekat Hmmm.
15:29 Zael And the Condesce would still exist
15:29 Lunar Well... We can alternate which trolls participated in it.
15:29 Lunar Oh, definitely she would
15:30 Lunar Hmmhmmhmmm
15:31 MGLVNA How about we start a thread for this ancestor stuff on the forum?
15:31 Nicekat Yes.
15:31 MGLVNA This is exactly the sort of thing to be discussed there, not irc.
15:31 Zael See what I was figuring was that since there was no Scratch, the Sufferer would have been claimed a heretic for preaching his ideas of how he thinks trolls should act and then led a rebellion for the lowbloods to rise up against the highbloods.
15:31 Lunar True, true
15:32 Lunar I /really/ like the idea of our ancestors being the pivotal people in Alternian history.
15:32 Lunar Okay, I see where you're coming from, zael.
15:32 MGLVNA But the sufferer preached that because he had pre scratch visions.
15:32 Lunar ^
15:32 MGLVNA No scratch, no visions of peace to preach.
15:32 Zael Yes but he was also a pacifist
15:32 Nicekat BECAUSE of the visions
15:32 Zael And I never said he had visions
15:33 Zael I'm saying these are his own, uninfluenced ideas
15:33 Nicekat And if the canon 12 ancestors hadn't been sent back on ectobiology meteors, he probably wouldn't have been found by Dolorosa
15:33 Nicekat and since back then there were no candyblooded lusii..
15:33 Nicekat he'd become mayo.
15:38 Zael Anyway there would be no meteors for the canon ancestors, so the dolorosa would have stayed in the caves, and the sufferer would have been born and he would have had attempts on his life for his blood color, eventually leading to the reason for his rebellion.
15:38 Nicekat He wouldn't have grown up at all without a lusus.
15:38 Zael He raised himself
15:39 Lunar Okay, so /if/ the Signless raised himself... how would he proceed?
15:40 Zael I'm not sure.
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Snuffleheim
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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:54 pm

The way I'm seeing it from what we already have (and the way I would support) is to have this be an Alternate Universe version of post-scratch Alternia. That is, basically the same stuff happens in history (plus our ancestors' actions) with only minor changes, mostly as a result as the lack of a Scratch. EG the Sufferer was just a mutant-blood who decided to attempt to change the world for the better and ended up starting a war instead, with no Scratch-related visions involved. Perhaps we could substitute the Scratch visions with your average, mystical variety, like what he probably thought he was having anyway.

The nice thing about not actually interacting with canon events much is not having to explain our relation to them, because they're pretyt much irrelevant. Frankly, would it make a difference to the way things turned out if there was a Scratch? Not for our ancestors, and not for our characters. Nobody's going to care a whole lot about how canon events (for example, the canon session) happened in our AU because there is very little relationship between the two sets of events.
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MultiversalInk

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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:42 pm

What if our Sufferer counterpart (I mean to recall something about TDL's ancestor?) had visions of the universe we'd create instead of a pre-Scratch Alternia?

We could get a neat loop that way too, with the Sufferer counterpart's descendant being inspired to make the new universe more peaceful.
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Snuffleheim
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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:48 pm

I dunno if I like that, considering it requires a Karkat. I like the idea of having him see our future world, tho.
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pianomaster42

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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:24 pm

I think what Multi was getting at was that TDL's ancestor is the equivalent of the Sufferer here. Am I misinterpreting things?
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Snuffleheim
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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:55 pm

I thought she just researched him.
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Lunar

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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:58 pm

I would like to suggest that we don't acknowledge the canon ancestors and make our ancestors equivalents to the pivotal roles played in canon. So we would need a SIgnless/Sufferer-like figure, as well as someone like the Summoner... We already have our ancestors, we can just play around with their significance.
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Snuffleheim
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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:27 am

I dunno, the canon ancestors are pretty much what defines Alternian history as we know it. I'd feel kind of like we'd shoe-horned in our own characters for no good reason if we just did away with them. I'd prefer if we kept them around with minimal changes, but had our own interact with them as little as possible.
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pianomaster42

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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:31 am

I think if we do include our own ancestors/get rid of the canoncestors, we should do away with the established roles entirely and come up with a whole new backstory.
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Lunar

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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:33 am

pianomaster42 wrote:
I think if we do include our own ancestors/get rid of the canoncestors, we should do away with the established roles entirely and come up with a whole new backstory.

^
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Snuffleheim
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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:38 am

By roles I assume you mean what backgrounds we have for them already...
In which case that would be necessary by default, since several of them are based on the canonical set-up of history.

However I'm still against the idea of getting rid of the canoncetors entirely. They do give us a nice history for us to fit our own ancestors into. Why should we get rid of that?
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Zael

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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:52 am

Yes, get rid of the Condesce who is also a canon ancestor.
That makes complete and total sense, you people who are too busy thinking iside of the box.
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pianomaster42

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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:58 am

Zael wrote:
Yes, get rid of the Condesce who is also a canon ancestor.
That makes complete and total sense, you people who are too busy thinking iside of the box.
Uh, I'm not sure how branching out from canon restrictions qualifies as "thinking inside the box", but okay.
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Lunar

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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:59 am

Sorry, I forgot about HIC, she would still be necessary, obviously.
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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:07 am

So, what's the reason for wanting to get rid of the canoncestors?
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Lunar

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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:11 am

Just to make it more original. *shrugs* I feel like it would tie the back story into the game and the role play better. This is all kind of rooted by my thoughts that a Scratch-like event/reset for the game session would be best, so I might be off base here.
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Snuffleheim
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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:12 am

But... the originality of what we write is based on what we write, not the setting that we necessarily depend on canon for anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:18 am

Snuffleheim wrote:
But... the originality of what we write is based on what we write, not the setting that we necessarily depend on canon for anyway.
Yes and no. On the one hand, it's nice to adhere to some sort of framework. But on the other, it would be very nice to just make our own backstory entirely. If we do use the canoncestors, it would be nice to use themas purely background characters, only mentioned once in a great while. Don't shoehorn them into our stories, etc. Otherwise, I think it'd be nice to create our own scenario for the ancestors.
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Lunar

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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:19 am

pianomaster42 wrote:
Snuffleheim wrote:
But... the originality of what we write is based on what we write, not the setting that we necessarily depend on canon for anyway.
Yes and no. On the one hand, it's nice to adhere to some sort of framework. But on the other, it would be very nice to just make our own backstory entirely. If we do use the canoncestors, it would be nice to use themas purely background characters, only mentioned once in a great while. Don't shoehorn them into our stories, etc. Otherwise, I think it'd be nice to create our own scenario for the ancestors.

2nd'd
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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:24 am

Did you guys even fucking READ what I wrote?
Also what's wrong with having framework and making less work for ourselves?
I'll tell you what's fucking wrong wit that. ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING
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Snuffleheim
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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:26 am

They never said anything was wrong with having a framework, Z.

pianomaster42 wrote:
If we do use the canoncestors, it would be nice to use them as purely background characters, only mentioned once in a great while. Don't shoehorn them into our stories, etc.
This is basically what I've been suggesting anyway.

Also, hey, even with the canoncestors around, there's no rule stating that they have to be used. Their experiences don't even cover 12 lifetimes, and even though the Condesce is immortal, we only know about her with relation to the other ancestors' events and her impact on troll society as a whole, which we would be keeping anyway. I know Nicekat, for one has his ancestor's plot completely isolated from pretty much all other characters, canon or not.
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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:28 am

Zael wrote:
Did you guys even fucking READ what I wrote?
Also what's wrong with having framework and making less work for ourselves?
I'll tell you what's fucking wrong wit that. ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING
If you read what we wrote, you'd know that we read what you wrote.
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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:43 am

So, are we going with the idea that canon ancestors exist, but having them interact with our characters is discouraged?
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Zael

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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:45 am

I was under the assumption that was the idea from the start, but yes. It does sound good.
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pianomaster42

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PostSubject: Re: The Ancestor thread   Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:59 am

Okay, then, are we all in agreement? They exist, but keep 'em out of the limelight? Any naysayers?
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